Healing from Domestic Violence: Debbie Di Verde on the role of creativity, community and the Church in her healing journey

I wonder how many of us lose our person and feel we have nothing to offer the world just because we fell in love... Debbie Di Verde tells us how creativity, community and the Church helped her recover from the toxic effects of a relationship that led to the loss of her children and almost the loss of her life’s value.

Debbie has starred in various stage productions including a role in Steel Magnolias as Truvy. She also has various film credits and published works under her belt. In her day job, she teaches Writing and Communication at National Louis University .

To participate in Debbie’s Writing for Healing Program, you can DM her on Instagram @debbiediverde.

Please DM me on Instagram or Facebook @judithobatusa to let me know what you thought of this episode.

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Music Credit:  https://indiefy.me/wanted-carter 

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Music Credit: https://indiefy.me/wanted-carter

Transcript

JKO:       Welcome to this episode of Messy Can't Stop Her, the podcast where we share the stories of women who did not allow chaos, crises and challenges to stop them from reaching for their dreams. Today we have Debbie de Verde. She's a writer, actress, a College instructor, and a survivor. Debbie, thank you for joining us today. 

Debbie: Thank you for having me, Judith. I'm honored. Thank you so much. 

JKO:       The honor is actually all ours because we get to hear the story of your experience and your triumph over the things that could have made you stop living, stop doing or even stop being. We are so privileged to be able to share the story of your coming through open heart surgery and one of the most debilitating experiences that people, especially women, go through, domestic violence. Yes. We are the ones who are honored to hear the story and to share in the learnings and be able to apply them without going through the experience you went through. Thank you. So like I said, Debbie is a survivor of open heart surgery and domestic violence. When we talk about someone being a multi talented artist, we're talking about Debbie. You see, Debbie has it in her genes to be on the art path because her father was Joey Lido. He had a band. He was part of a band. 

Debbie: That's right, Judith. 

JKO:       And her aunt is also a singer. So her family is a family of performers. So, Debbie, I read that you were in a production. You were in a Steel Magnolia production. I love that movie. How was that? 

Debbie: It was amazing. I played Truvy, who was the Dolly Parton character. So they took a little different approach. I'm not built like Dolly. I wish I was, but I'm a redhead. I'm tall. But that was actually my very first audition when I was going back into the theater world. So I had studied theater in College. I had performed in high school. And then I had my children, and I stepped away from it for a while. But that was always inside me. I always participated either in choir at Church or doing something with the arts, working with children. And so when I moved back to Illinois, I decided that I was going to start getting back into theater. So I did some Second City workshops, and they were being held at Metropolis Performing Arts in Arlington Heights, Illinois. And I saw that they were auditioning for Steel Magnolias. So I thought, I love that show, just like you said, you love the movie. And I decided to audition for it, not expecting at all to get a role. And then I was asked to play Truvy and Judith, that experience for me. I was bitten by the bug again by the performing bug. And it was a cast of all women. The play is a little bit different than the movie. It's an all women cast. And we got very close during the production and just working in this theater. It's a beautiful venue. It holds 300. And the way it is set up the stage and it has its own dressing room with sometimes you're in theaters that have nothing. Everybody's in the same area. But what I realized during that production was how much I missed being in theater and how much I missed performing in front of a live audience. And the story of Steel Magnolias is such a beautiful story. It embraces women and embraces the strength of women. And as you know, I believe Julia Roberts played the character Shelby and Shelby passes away and she has a disease. And it's about the closeness of the women in this house. Think about when women used to go every week and have their hair done right. Truvy’s was the meeting place. So not only did I get bit by the bug, but I realized that I was at a more mature stage in my life where I could embrace the story, the story of this play, of this production. And I had such a wonderful time and shoot. It brought out in me little things, little things that I had forgotten. Just the spontaneity of being on stage. Just a live performance. It's live. Whatever happens, happens sometimes. And you have to just go with the form and you feel that feedback from the audience. So I would have to say, even though I have done some commercial work, I've done some movie work. But for me, the live performance of theater is my true love is my true love is performing in front of a live body.

JKO:       So the two things that we highlighted about the experience you went through, the heart surgery, was it before this or after? 

Debbie: So the domestic abuse occurred before and during that relationship, I was not really allowed to do theater. So that is when I lost where I felt I lost some of my talent or I thought I did. I thought I did. Okay. So it was that what I was being led to believe about myself, that I was worthless, that I was not talented. So the domestic abuse occurred before the open heart surgery I had in 2017. So that was after I had already gotten back into the theater world and the commercial world. And I survived that. And then Kofi hit. So I haven't been back on stage, but I plan on being back on stage. 

JKO:       Very good. Exciting. So I want to take you back to the experience, though not pleasant, during the domestic violence period and all that it took away from you. Because one of the most that's why I use the word debilitating experiences. Because it strips you of your person. Yes. Why will I say that? When you lose belief in your abilities, in the value you bring to the world and to different spaces where you inhabit, then you lose your person? Yes. Because what's life if I'm useless or what's life if I'm helpless? So can you just take us back to what that experience was like in terms of those things that you felt? Because some people completely lose themselves and they're never able to get it back. But you did. Yes. You are one of the many amazing women who are telling their story, who can now raise their shoulders because they came through and they've got the story worth sharing. So during that period, what were those negatives, the emotions, the situation, the experiences. And then you had children in that whole mix as well?

Debbie: Yes, I did, Judith. And thank you so much for acknowledging that. I came through. And I know we spoke a little bit before we started the podcast about the bitterness. And I'm so thankful that I did not become bitter through it all and triumphed. And my story is actually in a book and it's called Women are With You, 32 Survivor Stories, and I would like to read it. Some of the places and names have been changed, and that was the author's decision. But this is my story. It is true. So I would like to read it. It's not very long, but it was a long 15 year marriage that I stayed in. So I have two grown children. My daughter lives in San Francisco and my son lives in DC. They're both doing wonderfully and they're both successful. Me. Thank you me at the time of this writing, I'm an actress. At my first audition after my divorce. I wasn't acting during my marriage, which is what I mentioned. I was cast in a leading role at a big performing arts center that led to voiceovers and commercials. One commercial ran at a global event. My face was everywhere at the train station on kiosks and big banners. I got texts from people saying, you're on a Billboard, and I 94. I shot a horror film a few years ago that was fun. My husband and I met taking theater courses at a College. I got a tuition waiver because I was going to be a bright star in the theater Department. My husband was a communications major, and so he was in one of my classes. He intrigued me from the GetGo. He was artsy and handsome. There were early warning signs, but my self esteem was pretty low, so I didn't register on them. I started hanging out in his single room, and I stopped going to class. I spent all my time with him. It was all consuming. I ended up dropping out of school because my confidence had fallen. I got a job working at Walgreens. My husband dropped out, too, and him and I moved in together. Once we started living together, the abuse got worse. He could turn on the charm in front of people. But when we were by ourselves, he got patronizing. He would question my worthiness and tell me he preferred other women's looks, that I wasn't attractive enough. It would throw me off. But I almost felt sorry for him. That was all part of the manipulation. We ended up eloping, and when I got pregnant with our son, we moved to North Chicago. He was verbally abusive during my pregnancy, and he repeated cruel things until I cried. My husband was in and out of 17 different jobs in the 15 years we were married. He'd get odd jobs, like working in a bar. He had this dream of being the front man in a band. Then he decided to move to Texas because that's where the jobs are. So we sold everything we had. I got pregnant there, and my daughter is a native Texan. I felt so isolated from my family. I was miserable. He would say to me, if your family ever moves down or comes down here, I will blow them away with an oose. He had a gun. The sex part was difficult at one point. This is a little difficult for me, Judith. At one point, he raped me, dragged me across the floor by my feet against my will. I don't really talk about that a lot because some people think, if you're married, how can it be raped? Still, we'd go to Church and smile and be this Church going family. For a time, I was a born again Christian, so that played into it too. I was like I found Jesus and was all submissive. Most of his abuse was verbal. But once he hit me on the face with a rolled up magazine and split right above my right eye open. At work, I lied and said, I got hit with a tennis racket and so I want to go just on a little bit. He made me feel intimidating. He was physically abusive to my son. He would punch him in the stomach and called it wrestling. On Mother's Day weekend, he kidnapped my children and didn't tell me where they were. This is when I asked for a divorce. My brother drove down from Illinois and we went looking for them everywhere. They were ten and eleven and they came back brainwashed against me. I went to a divorce lawyer and a social worker. They both said I shouldn't ask for custody because Texas is a man state. I know now that I would have won had I fought for custody. But back then I was so beaten down, I was the doormat. And every time I tried fighting back, it always got worse. So had I known in hindsight that this was an accumulation of years of psychological abuse, I would have fought with everything I had. After the divorce, I tried to pull myself out of the trauma. I decided to make the best of it and develop new friendships go back to school. I went on to get my bachelor's in behavioral science and my master's in written communication. I always try to stay positive. I wouldn't be the person I am today if I didn't go through all of that. Okay. I didn't have the white picket fence, but I had my two children. There is a magnificent goodness that came out of that what I would tell other women. Have faith in who you are inside. Embrace self help talk. Surround yourself with positive people, people that are your cheerleaders. Don't let him beat you down. Live your values and be true to yourself. 

JKO:       Thank you so much, Debbie. Thank you so much. That must have been really hard to read, because every time you tell the story, you experience it again. I'm so sorry that we make you do that. 

Debbie: No, Judith. It's so important for others to hear. And the part that I did not write is that I lost my two children. He took them from me and he made up stories and went to court. And I lost them for a long time. But now they're adults, and my daughter and I are closer than ever. My son still struggles with some of the things. He's the oldest of the two, but he's coming around. He's coming around. And I pray every day. I pray every day for both of them and just the blessings that they are and what they have brought to my life. 

JKO:       I'm so glad that you still have connection with them. Some people don't even get to see their kids again. One thing that your story brings out again here is the fact that domestic violence is not always wildly violent, physically violent. So, you are in a cage. Some people, they are locked up and all that stuff. But many people who are in the domestic violence situation, they are not in a cage that is physical. The cage is mental. So despite the fact that they are allowed to go out every day, go out every day. They go to Church, they go grocery shopping. They even go out once in a while to meet people, to hang out. But they're still in a cage. And that is what we're talking about. What I mentioned earlier about losing who you are. Yes. So you could have gone back to school, you could have started acting again, but you didn't because you were in a cage in your mind. Yes. Tell us how the chains began to unravel. 

Debbie: Wow. Thinking back, I believe it was the support of my family. They knew that something was not right, but because of trying to protect my husband. At the time, I never confided in them. But when I saw what was happening, not only to me now, but my children, I could no longer stay silent. I almost felt like I was betraying him. But there was a comment I made, and I'm trying to remember exactly. You'll have to forgive me. I think some of this I have blocked out just because of the trauma. And I don't remember exactly who I finally opened up to, but I opened up to one of my family members. And I remember sitting in my old room in my house. We had gone up for Christmas and saying, I am so unhappy and this is what is going on. And so when we left my parents house and drove back down to Texas, my family didn't let up on this. And they called. I remember my mother calling every day. And finally things just started coming out and coming out. And I said, I feel that. I feel that I'm the crazy one. I was so off balance. Yes. So off balance. But that's part of the abuse. That's part of the abuse. To keep you off balance. The bad one. Yes. To keep you thinking, it's you. It's your fault. This is all your fault. And so my mom had a great idea. She said, because he would sit us down sometimes and just do a monologue. Your mom wants the divorce. I don't want this. Why do they not allow any of us to speak? And so my mom said, if you can record, if you can start recording things. And at the time, it was when you had little tape recorder, the cassette recorders, right. I secretly recorded one of these instances, and I played it back and the light bulb went on. I am in a cult within my own home. This man is a cult leader. He doesn't allow us to speak or share our feelings or emotions about what is going on. But I realized at that time that's when he started in on my children, because he knew that if he could get my children against me, that would be the ultimate, the ultimate sting, so to speak. But it was the support of my family and my Church friends. I was also afraid to say anything there, but there was a couple that I was able to open up to. They also helped me. My lawyer told me, you need to get yourself and your children as far away from him as you can. You go up there, you go back to Illinois, and then you decide what you're going to do. He didn't even want but my ex found all this out. He was actually listening in on my conversations and stopped me. My brother came down to come back to Illinois with me and the children. And that's when he took them away for the weekend and said, Your mom wants to take you away from me. And that really wasn't my intention. It really wasn't. I just wanted to get away, get my head together, figure things out. So the court told me, don't fight for custody. The children want to stay with him. They'll come around and I'm thinking, a week from now they're going to call me. The hardest part was leaving them and not getting them back for years. And Judith, I actually lost my voice, my physical voice. When I realized that they didn't want to be with me, I could not speak. I lost because my heart ache was so strong when I realized that I lost them. 

JKO:       So before you go to the point of the lawyer, because at the point of the lawyer was when you were now making the plan to move the kids with you, to just take a break. I know when you talk about being born again, I am born again. And I know all that about submission. Yes. But you know, after a long time of being in a relationship where I'm not of any value to the person who covenanted to be with me through all situations, who wasn't with me, was there physically but wasn't with me personally, if anything happened, it was my fault. If someone disrespected me, it was my fault. And then, of course, you disrespect me. I understood one thing. God hates divorce. Yes, but God loves us more than he hates divorce. I came to that realization maybe two years ago. So every time they tell a Christian woman that she should stay in a place where she's losing her mind. they may not beat you, he's not slapping you around, but you're losing everything. Imagine the loss of your children. I want to commend your parents because you disappointed them so badly when you went to school and you dropped out. (Debbie:Yes.) And then moved in with a guy and then moved away. For some of us as parents, that would be the deal breaker. They were just cut off from the child. But your parents didn't do that. And that's why we talk about tough love. Tough love is not the love that enables children to do bad things. No. Tough love is the love that sticks with you through the tough times, through the times when you behave like you don't deserve love. So I want to give a shout out to your parents. I appreciate them. And parents need to learn from this. When our children make mistakes, we don't give up on them. We keep on loving them because they need us. And when you needed them, they were there for you. So your mom kept encouraging you. So I just want you to kind of describe I know you said you kept calling for someone who is in this situation or who is a parent with a child who has turned their back on them because of a relationship. What are the things your parents did to keep you close so that you don't feel like you have no one because it was that love that broke those chains that you were bound in? It was their love, Please share a little about that. 

Debbie: Thank you so much for seeing that. Thank you so much. Both of my parents are still alive. My dad is 89 and he asked for prayers for him. He's going through some physical things right now. My mom is 85. And just like any child, right, there were times when I hated my parents. That's a strong word. Strong word. I felt like they didn't understand me. But now I realized they were always fighting for me, always fighting for me. And what they did was they always welcomed me, my husband at the time, my children and loved them and loved us. Their grandchildren were everything. And my daughter and my dad are so close, and she's a singer as well. And so she sits at his feet and listens to his stories and wants to record him still and all that. And my son, he's coming back around. They welcome. It's almost that story of the prodigal, right. And they have been there. I have three younger brothers and they have been there. And I think the light bulb just went on for me with what you said, that love. I never realized it was love. They were just trying to be there for me in the way they knew how. Maybe it wasn't always perfect, right. Even growing up, maybe it wasn't always perfect, but they're have been steadfast. And that is what gave me the strength, not only God, of course, that goes without saying. That strength, that prayer, the prayer I was going through at the time, I started going to a different Church. That Church gave me strength. Wow. Was the first Church that didn't say, you go back to that man because I was involved in another Church that I actually left him for a couple of weeks. And I've never been happier and felt freer. But then they were like, okay, it's time for you to go back now, you know, go back into that abuse. And I stayed another eight years, right. This was seven years into the marriage and I stayed another eight. But I finally found a Church that was supportive in the way, and I was counseling. So it was a combination of things that came into my life at that time that gave me the strength. And it was hard. It was nightmarish. It was nightmare. I had my brother come down. My father came down. My uncle came down. Wow. They were all in the house with him, with me, with my children, who were now looking at me like I was a rotten Apple. And he just pretended, would go up. Hey, how are you doing?

The charm, always turned on in front of us. Yes. So it was tough. It was a nightmare. The worst part was leaving the children. But I didn't know. I didn't have the knowledge at that point to know that it would take years before they came around, years. But we are now finally talking about they're open my daughter, especially to talking about what happened during those years. And there has been a lot of healing in their lives as well. (JKO: It's so wonderful.) Like I said, my son is still struggling, but he recognizes and he realizes and I think it was harder for him, I don't know, maybe men, boys, they want their fathers to be proud of them, to be. And my son is successful. They're both successful. And they were able to go on as well, which is that is everything I could ask for. 

JKO:       I'm happy for you. I'm very, very, very happy for you. And why I'm so happy for you, because I am watching my children's lives. Yes. It's very painful and traumatic for me. Very very traumatic for me. Whenever I see someone's child succeed, I know that many people sometimes think, oh, when you train your child this way, they go this way, and then they become it's not really that straightforward. And with all your best intentions. I just told you about my son and the child welfare system, how we had this whole plan. Me and my son, we had everything about where he was going to school, he was going to go into the IB program, and they took my son out of the IB program. And I mean, totally derailed my son's life plan that we had. The most difficult thing for children is when parents are not on one page. Yes, on the same page. When you are not on the same page, it's like having a house, where there’s a hole like a wall is cracked. When the wall is cracked, then rodents will come in, bugs will come in. When the relationship between mom and dad is a mess, no matter how you put up a facade, we wear the same colors, whatever outside. But the foundational blocks that make a home secure for a child is missing. By the way you treat your significant other, you are cracking the wall and you're bringing in stuff. Child welfare system. Yes, we have the child welfare system, and they do make mistakes because human beings work there. Yes. But when they come into a home where the family is, the foundation is strong and stable. They're not able to perpetuate as much harm as they may have, depending on who is coming from the child welfare system. Every time a child welfare system comes into your home, they are looking for abuse. So if there's domestic violence, then Antenna just goes and they're going to search more because they know that where there is domestic violence, the structure that keeps a child secure is broken and the child is not feeling secure. Many times, we point at the child system. But child resistance can only become destructive where there is no unity. That's what I feel from my experience. I may be wrong. Experts, those who have data, can say I'm wrong. But once mom and dad are not together on the same page, they're exposing their children to trouble and struggles. So for you to be telling me that your children are doing very well and everything, I want us to recognize that this is a miracle. 

Debbie: It is a miracle. And Judith and I want to just reiterate, it's not perfect. I believe my son was more traumatized and he's still struggling. Yeah, actually, they both were. I just think my daughter had a better. Oh, gosh, I'm not sure how to put it. Maybe, more self awareness. Okay. But what is sad for me, with my son is that he has some of his father's tendencies. Right. Even if he wasn't raised by his dad. Even if he lived, he didn't like his dad. Some of them still get the traits. Absolutely. And I just see it and that's I had a friend of mine say, you cannot help him. He has to recognize that. 

Oh, Judith, I should have been on an hour before the podcast. We could have talked, but I said, what can I do? What can I do? You cannot help him. It finally clicked with me. It's like, yes, if someone is an alcoholic, they are the ones that have to admit that and seek to help, right? Yes. So I just have to do what I can to maintain the relationship. But set boundaries. I'm having trouble setting boundaries. Now, I'm not going to lie, I'm having trouble setting boundary because he's my son. Right. And I want to give, and I actually want to seek help for that. How do I set these boundaries without alienating him? That's the struggle I'm having right now. 

JKO:       Especially because for so many years of his life, he wasn't even there with you. You couldn't have this relationship. So certain boundaries would be very hard. I want to also tell you one other reason why it's going to be hard. Maybe you've heard of the Oedipus complex. Yes. That might be why he’s more traumatized your daughter? Because he needed his mom. There's a bond between a son and a mother. Yes. And it's like, you were violently torn apart. The scar is deep. Remember, you were an adult. He was a child. Yes. That might be one of the reasons why it's more traumatic. Your son, I think he's having this crisis how much he loves his mom. And yet, they’ve told him his mom is this horrible person. And no, mom doesn't really look like she's horrible. Then of course, I love that, too. He's going through all the gamut of emotions. Girls love their dad. And I'm sure your husband was nicer to his daughter than he was. Like, the boy should be a man, do this so she doesn't have the experience your son had, even the same house. And then she's a girl. She loves her mom, too. So I guess that's why I was going to be praying for him. Yes. What the Lord has started because the Lord has started a good work is closer to you than it used to be. Yeah. I'm going to give you wisdom. Yeah. I don't know about the boundaries. They've been talking about boundaries. They tried to tell me these boundaries, too, but it's very hard. You’re compensating for the losses of the past. Yes. So it's not easy. And God's wisdom is all we need, because sometimes people tell us, experts tell us these things, but God is saying something else. And when you do what God is saying, that is so different, you get the positive that the experts want you to get, but their strategy isn't working. 

Debbie: That's right. And Judith, if I can see what they're going back to my daughter, actually, she does not speak to her father either. She was also traumatized. And he continues to this day to text them horrible, horrific things 35 years later. Horrific things. He's a very sick man. And my son is not speaking to him. But you're right. I didn't think about this. He even calls him by his first name because he won't call him dad anymore. And he has broken away from him. But I think there's still that pull like you and me. You're right. My mom left when I needed her. I'm angry. I feel he still has anger toward me. And it comes out. It comes out in ways that are subtle sometimes, but also strong. And I see him with my other relatives. He adores my mother and father. He adores my brothers and my nieces and nephews. But with me, he is that anger. And I tried to have a conversation with him about it, and he exploded. He's like, I'm not angry. Stop telling me I am angry. And I couldn't have that conversation with him. So that's what I'm praying. How do I have this conversation with how do I I'm sorry. So many times I've cried about it. He knows the situation. He knows why I think he even understands why that happened, that I left, that I thought I would have them, that they were going to follow right behind me and I was going to come get them. But like you said, I loved what you said. That back and forth, I see mom living her life. I see what she's done. But yes, but I was told this, and I don't really even know everything that he said about me. I know some things that were painful and to tell a child those things. That's what I was most angry about. I was most angry about what he was doing to the children. As you said, I was an adult. Yes. It was horrible. It was nightmarish to live through the abuse. But what he was doing with the children and how he was manipulating them, that's what really broke my heart. 

JKO:       Another thing you need to know, it may not be you that needs to have the conversation. It may be someone else, maybe a book. It may be a song, it may be a movie. It may not be you having the conversation that will make the difference. And remember, he was hearing all these horrible things about you. I'm sure one of them was country. She has abandoned you. And then you are on commercials on this. They're seeing you all over and here you understand. Yes. How much explanation can you ever give to the facts, to that situation? How much expansion can you ever give to explain that? I went to the place for a class and then they had this audition, even though I went there with my feet quaking in my boots, my heart shaking with no self esteem. Explain all those things and anybody is going to believe you. All they see is that you are on the Billboard, you're on TV, and then the father is there speaking. And not only their dad, maybe some other people that are their dad's friends and who knows, that's their path. You don't need to explain. And he will come round. And if he doesn't come around, he will come round. He will come round eventually. And it may not be you that will explain it. And they were very privileged. They have loving grandparents. So that's awesome. So I know this is kind of painful, but we are glad that you still have the relationship. And that is so good. And though he's struggling, I think I saw him. He's a singer. Does he sing? 

Debbie: He actually is a filmmaker. So he taught film. Both of my children went into creative field, so he teaches film and he makes documentaries and my daughter teaches voice lessons. 

JKO:       They are doing things that are wonderful, things that give them joy. So they have parts of their lives that they are happy people. And like you said, he gets along with everybody else once in a while. He also gets along with you once in a while. So you got to live with it at the boundaries. I don't know how you're going to set those. I don't know how you're going to set it. Like I said, just pray and God will show you how. The one thing I've begun to do is to listen to my heart. Sometimes you want to put those boundaries in place and then you are so destabilized by the boundary you set. And the Bible says anything done without faith, without peace, peace is the sign that you're doing what you're supposed to do. That's for me, once I have peace on a decision, even if the experts say X-Y-Z I'm just going to go with it. Because when I said the expert position and I'm not having peace, expert doesn't feel the discomfort. And once you don't have peace, you take a wrong decision in other areas that have nothing to do with that situation. So you need your peace. Anything that doesn't give you peace, don't do anything that gives you peace. Go ahead and enjoy doing it. So your parents and your family and the Church, that part of the Church. Me, I'm really into the Church because I remember going to Church. My husband left me one time. One time he left me. We later came back together after leaving. And then here we are again. That's the first time he left me. In 2014, I was in a Church, and one person who was in the Church who is like a pastor or something came and said to me, you know that in this Church you cannot become anything if people that are divorced or separated don't become anything in this Church. He just came and said that to me. Wow. Yeah. So the role that the Church plays in enabling abusers to continue to abuse. Instead of saying to the man, this is what the word of God says, you are breaking God's law, they start begging him to be nicer to you. Begging him. And it's not about begging him to be nicer to you. It's about him obeying God's word. It's not about me. It's not about how he treats his wife. It's about the fact that the way you treat your wife is a sin. The Church needs to be more forthright, more outspoken about these two men because many of them will claim they don't know. So tell them.

I'm so glad you got a Church that supported you. So tell me a little bit about that before we go into what you did when you left. 

Debbie: Okay. And I told you that the Church I was with, that we were both attending did not support me. Well, you need to go back down. You got to work this out. What you mentioned, divorce is not the way and went back for eight more years. And then I decided to follow my heart. There were some people that were investigating this other Church that attended this first Church. Right. In order. And I was friends with them. And I decided I want to find out about, let me find out about this other Church that wasn't where I landed at. Yet another Church I'm supposed to Church I was at became my home. I was going by myself with my children, and I ended up being on the praise and worship team. So I was singing every Sunday up there. And they knew what was going on, right. Not all of it not all of it, but I was coming by myself and they were fine with that. And they would pray with me. And I was involved with the children there as well. And I was counseling with the pastor's wife was a counselor. She did her Master's in Social Work. And she also gave me the strength to say, you know, this isn't right. Like I said, there were some things that came together at the same time. And that was another piece of that puzzle because they supported me. My faith. Absolutely my faith. 

JKO:       As a Christian, your faith is so important to you. So for you to see the validation from the Church, that the way you are feeling about the fact that this is not right to be in a situation like this. Because, see, we are not here for ourselves. God put us here for us to add value to the world. And abuse takes away our ability to do that. So the Church is saying, Girl, you will fulfill your purpose when you are able to get your life together. I'm not sure. She said, go and divorce him. She said, oh, no, you are able to get yourself out of this place and get it together first so that you can fulfill your destiny. Purpose. You are here for a purpose and in heaven, there's no husband and there's no wife. So why do I have to die trying to be in a marriage that is killing me and making me unable to function? I think our faith actually keeps us in this thing the way we're supposed to submit. Maybe I'm not submitting enough. Maybe the Word of God says this. So when you hear from another perspective of the same Word of God, it helps you balance the way you think. So if you're a Christian woman who is in an abusive situation, who knows in her heart that something is not right, seek help. Go for Bible based counseling. And you see what Debbie did. Debbie kept going to different churches till she found a place where her spirit rested. Some people say that spiritual prostitution, that is a lie from the pit of hell. There’s no such thing as spiritual prostitution. There’s no such thing. Go to other churches. The Bible says, taste and see that the Lord is good. So taste the churches until you see the one that's good. That's right. Judith,  Please tell us a little bit about the things you're doing because he said you. Now, I think you already told me that outside. 

Debbie: One thing I have to say, Judith, that has kept me going husband my faith, okay, because it's still been up, down, up, down, up, down, right. We don't always go the straight and narrow path, but God has always been there for me. So now I went back to school. I always wanted. I felt like dropping out of school was. I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed. I think that was part of what I needed to feel. Self worth. Okay. But for me, it was so I went back. At first, I was a dental hygienist for a while. Believe it or not, that was another career. But that was the first time I went back. I got my associate in dental hygiene. I said, no, I want to get my Bachelor's. So I got my Bachelor's in Applied Behavioral Science, and I was working for a pharmaceutical company and doing dental hygiene. That's when my heart issue started. And I had surgery, cervical spine surgery. I started getting osteoarthritis. I had started getting my heart palpitations and all. And I said, well, I don't know how much longer I'm going to be able to do general hiking. And one day I was taking out some old College papers, and this piece of paper floated out. I picked it up and it says, Masters in Written Communication. And you can teach with this degree, you could teach at the College level, English and writing. And I said, I always loved writing. It brought back from fifth grade on, I wrote this bio about my family and how much I enjoyed. So I always enjoyed writing. So I said, I think I need to investigate this. And so it just so happened that the head of the Department came to one of my readings. I was doing a reader reading just for a new play. So sometimes before a new play, you do a reading, you have the script, but you read unbeknownst to me. She was there. And then when I called her the next week, she introduced herself and she said, I really liked the character you were playing. You were very good. And she said, My name is Dr. Joanne Koch. Wow. And I said, Nice to meet you, Dr. Cook. The next week, I called National Louis and I said, I'm interested in this master's program. And they said, well, you have to speak with Dr. Koch first. And I said, Dr. Koch, how do you spell that? And she said, K-O-C-H. And I said, I think I might have met her already. I didn't know she was involved with the writers in this theater group. So that's how she was there. So I called her and I said, Hello, Dr. Cook, this is Debbie Di Verde. I believe we've met already. I said, I played the nun in the reading. So I got into the program again. I was shaking in my boots. If I could quote what you said earlier for the audition, it was the same thing, because here I am going back to school at older age. I mean, I just got my master's in 2014. So I walked in and she's like, I want you to write an essay on this. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, now. So I wrote it. I got accepted into the program. It was a two-year program. I'm still friends with some of the people that were in the program. I did get my Masters. I was hired on at a community College where I teach English and the University where I teach Communication. And it's my joy. I just have a connection with the College students. And I love hearing from the young people now, I want to hear from them. I want to know what is going on with your life. How are you? So it's really about building relationship with them. And some of it's been difficult because it has been remote. So I don't get to see them in person. But I found a love there, and I also found a love with helping adults. I have also done studies on writing for healing. And so I feel that journaling and writing. And I stopped journaling for a long time as well, because of my husband, my ex-husband, because he found one of my journals and used it against me in court. So that was another painful thing. But I believe in it. I believe it is you can get your feelings down where sometimes you may not be able to express them otherwise. And I encourage my students to Journal. I give them prompts, and they love the Journal prompts, you know, the open heart. And I really do believe that also was a miracle for me because I was a runner. I thought I was healthy. I was healthy, actually. It didn't have anything to do with my arteries being blocked or anything. It was a mechanical issue. For about 15 years. I dealt with it. I was thrown on medications. My quality of life was going down. And finally they said, open heart. And like, a hole opens up. And you're like, what are you talking about? But my mitral valve was deteriorating, and also they found a hole in my heart that probably I was born with. So a miracle that I'm here today, even with that. So I went through that, and it was very traumatic physically. But the miracle was that they didn't have to replace my valve. They thought it looked so deteriorated with the pictures they took. Before I went into surgery. They had me pick between a mechanical and a pig valve or a calf valve. So I picked the soft tissue because I heard that you could hear the ticking of the mechanical valve. But I said, oh, I won't be able to live with that. I can't even stand to hear water drip in a faucet. If I hear myself ticking at night, that's not going to be a good thing. I picked that. And I remember about a day later the surgeon coming in and my parents were there, and he told them we were able to repair her own valves we were able to repair. And I remembered I was still kind of out of it. And I remember I thought I heard him. So when he came back, I said, Did I hear you say this? That you were able to repair my own valve? And he said, yes, that was the best case scenario for this. We didn't have to replace yes, Jesus. So that was another miracle. I wouldn't wish my enemy open heart, it’s the worst. You're just tubes and pokes and everything everywhere. But I went through it. And a year later, I had to have another procedure because a little flutter came back. So it was a different I was having arrhythmias. This was a flutter, but this time they just had to go through the groin and they were able to repair that. And I no longer have shortness of breath. I no longer have palpitations arrhythmias. Nothing. My heart is very scarred. We probably could not do any other procedure on you, but, I mean, I'm just healed from it. Wonderful. The scar is even healed. I'm part of the zipper club. I call myself part of the zipper club, but I got through that and I had the strength of again, my friends and family and praying for me. And the miracle was that they were able to repair my own valve. And actually, I didn't need to do this, but one of my friends gave me this after my surgery. It says survivor.

JKO:       Such a good gift. I wonder the role that the heartache of the domestic violence played in the health challenges that you encountered, including the fact that you also lost your ability to speak for a while. Domestic violence is so destructive. It's physically destructive. It's emotionally destructive. It is generationally destructive. And it doesn't just impact the man and the woman involved. It impacts the children. It impacts friends, family, relationships, work. It's a terrible thing. And we should all say no to it. We should all speak up against it. We should not pander to the whims of the abuser, but we should tell the abuser what the Word of God says about abusing one another. And it's something that we all need to share, especially among people of faith. (Debbie: Absolutely.) Hiding under the faith to perpetrate all those things is so sad. I'm sure Lord Jesus, who came and died for us, is not happy about it. No, don't say you're a Christian whose wife is complaining and you don't care. Don't say you're a pastor whose congregant is complaining and you are saying stay and all those things. Talk to the abuser, set them straight. 

Debbie: Amen. That's right. And Judith, what you said about generationally, even my own children, I'm so thankful. My daughter is in her first serious relationship. But even there, she's counseling because she is still dealing with things and she wants to be sure that she wants to break free of whatever those chains were of that violence. That domestic abuse. And you're so right about that. We do need to speak up, and it is not ever right from either side. There are men that are also in abusive relationships. Relationships, yeah. 

JKO:       Yes. If you are listening on this episode and you heard about Debbie Di Verde, one thing that she does is this - Writing for healing. Writing for healing is a way to find clarity and confusion. It's a way to calm the storm in your heart when trauma has created an upheaval. And in the show notes, we'll have Debbie di Verde’s contact details and you can contact her to see how you can join her program for writing for healing. I have been in a Writing for Healing workshop and it was excellent. For Debbie. we are getting an intersection of her profession and her experience. So she has been in your shoes. She's felt that chaos. She has felt that shock. But she also has expertise in helping people use their own writing to heal themselves. Debbie, do you want to just say the last word or two regarding what you're doing with your experience and your profession to help other people? 

Debbie: Absolutely, Judith. And thank you so much. I just again feel that it is an Avenue for healing. Writing is an Avenue for healing, and I have experienced it in my own life. I did say that I believe in journaling. I believe in the power of getting your words down on paper, because sometimes you cannot speak. And that may be the starting point for you. That may be the starting point where you say, I'm afraid, I'm afraid that I may not be able to talk to somebody right now, but I can write down those fears. I can write down I can begin by writing down what I've gone through, what maybe I'm going through, and whether it is domestic violence, whether it is something physical that you're going through, whether it's the death of somebody, a loved one, anything that may be traumatic to you, traumatic to your life by writing this down, it's so cathartic and it's such a healing process. And as we know, even with divorce, with getting out of a violent situation, with going through a physical ailment, you go through steps, you go through the grieving process, and it may be different for some people. Everybody is different or they go through it differently is what I'm trying to say. But by writing that down, you get your thoughts down. And it's just the way I helped adults do that. And they want to keep saying, when are you going to have your next session? Because I want to continue. I want to continue. This has helped me so much and also going through what I have myself. I have a level of empathy for others that I can be that strength. I can be that Avenue. I can help in that way and not only myself, but through the prayers, through prayers, through just setting up the steps for you to begin that journaling process, that writing for healing. 

JKO:       Awesome. Thank you so much, Debbie. It's been such a pleasure having you on the podcast today on Messy Can't Stop Her, Debbie. (Debbie: Messy cannot stop.) That's right, Messy can't stop US. 

Debbie: I feel so blessed. Thank you for inviting me. I'm so honored and I wish you the best with your podcast. It is going to take off. I feel it. You're going to fly and Messy can't stop you either, Judith. Yes. 

JKO:       Thank you so much listeners. Thank you for listening to this episode of Messy can’t stop her. Like I said before, in the show notes you will have contact details for Debbie so you can sign up for one of her writing for healing sessions and see where that takes you on your journey. Messy didn't stop Debbie, Messy can’t stop us and Messy won't stop you. See you next time.