Debt, Divorce and Death: 5-time Washingtonian top doctor, beauty Queen and Rotary Leader tells us how she came through the trio stronger

Either one of the 3Ds of debt, divorce and death can derail a person’s life but when they hit Pallu together, she fought back with service. From being comfortable with the uncomfortable, she became a comforter to others.

Nuggets of wisdom in this episode

When we give to others, we help ourselves.

Seeing your shortcomings as challenges to overcome is part of the positive self talk

Being kinder to yourself, being positive and having positive self talk is just as important as taking medication for a chronic medical condition.

How we talk to ourselves frames how we are in our relationships with others. 

Your past does not determine your future.

If you don't make yourself a priority, no one else will.

References in this episode

Turning adversity into opportunity | Muniba Mazari | TEDxIslamabad https://youtu.be/I68Y81ZpjNM

Mel Robbins

Lisa Nichols

Iyanla Vanzant

Oliver Twist

To follow Dr. Pallavi Gowda’s work, visit https://drpallavigowda.com/ . 

Thank you so much for listening!

 If Messy Can’t Stop Her blesses or inspires you, please consider supporting it at supportmessycantstopher.buzzsprout.com. Thank you for being part of this journey.

If you would love to share your story on the #MessyCantStopHer podcast, click here to let me know.  

Thank you so much for listening.
 
 Music Credit:  https://indiefy.me/wanted-carter 

Transcript

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JKO:       On today's episode of Messy Can’t Stop Her, we have Dr. Pallavi Gowda, she's a phenomenal woman to me. She's a medical doctor extraordinaire. Why I use that word extraordinaire to describe Pallu is because she is not just your run-of-the-mill doctor, but she's a doctor that wants to provide an all-encompassing medical service. And that's why she runs a concierge service for her clients so that at all times of the day, they can reach out to her and she'll give them what they need and support them on their wellness and their health journey. Pallu is a real life beauty queen, so she's a pageant title holder. She is also a Rotarian, actually. She is the current President of the Potomac Rotary Club. Pallu is doing great community work, not just within the United States, but in different countries, including India. She's reaching out, and she's helping people who are in vulnerable situations. Pallu is the recipient of many, many awards. She's been top doctor for the last four years by the Washingtonian magazine. She's Bethesda 2021 top doctor. She's received a national award from the governor of Maryland. She's also I can't forget this, a US. Army veteran. Please, let's welcome Pallu to today's episode. Pallu, thank you for honoring us with your presence today. 

Pallu:     Thank you. It's an absolute delight to be here. An honor. If we can inspire others to reach their highest potential, then I would say this is successful. So thank you for allowing me to be on this journey with you. 

JKO:       Thank you so much, Pallu, because I did a lot of talk about all that you are and all that you've done. Maybe just give us a short capsule that covers parts that maybe I did not get to COVID about who you are and what you do. 

Pallu:     Sure, you covered so many things, but yes, I'm a medical doctor, internal medicine, board certified, passionate about health and wellness of my patients and my community, and I leverage that to help in those needs. And so I have been a delegate with the Maryland Medical Society where we review health policies, because the other thing I've done is obtained through the GI bills to back up as I'm a US. Army veteran and received the post 911 GI bill. And with that, I went back to school and got my Masters of Health Administration at GW University. And so I'm interested in health policy as well. So, again, it fits into that mission of health and wellness for the community. And so that's what I'm really passionate about. Fun things I like to do or dance fitness enthusiast as well. And so therefore, that's how I got into Zumba. 

JKO:       Yes, she's a Zumba instructor. Isn't that awesome? That's why I say she's phenomenal. Pallu is doing all these things, all these things simultaneously. But Pallu is also mum to two children, one daughter and one son. And she fits all this into her busy schedule. But you see, we're not here to talk about Pallu's achievements. Because behind those achievements is a backstory. And that backstory is where we're going. The mess that propelled Pallu to this place where we see this Pallu, can you please share that with us? 

Pallu:     I grew up not in the comfort zone or uncomfortable became common. And so when I was born, my biological mother passed away 24 hours after giving birth to me. And so having just even a story like that, it's hard for any child to kind of fathom and how family treats you, just knowing that information itself. But I often did feel like an outsider, even in my own family. But I grew up, for the first five years of my life, in a remote village in India, where there were no bathrooms, there's no school, there's no anything, but it was surrounded by family members. And we were lucky to have food and running water. That was a big blessing at those times. And so my biological mother's sister actually married my father. And came to the US. In order to help take care of us, basically because she didn't want to see three girls suddenly motherless. And so that was a sacrifice that she made on her own behalf. Not because they liked each other or they even knew each other very well, but it was really more of not wanting to have me and my sisters have a stepmother and so forth, or at least a stepmother outside of the family. So that has a cultural roots. But anyway, so they came to the United States as originally planned. And eventually I joined them when I had just turned six. Coming here at the age of six, after having been in a remote village for five years, I did stay in the city for a year in India, but even then, I felt like having Tarzan come to the city. Then when I came to the United States, we were mainly in a small town in Illinois called Macomb, Illinois, where it was mainly caucasians. And so there weren't many people of color. So here I came from little remote village in india. To a small city in the United States where there weren't many people of color. So, again, being uncomfortable became common. And so that actually propelled me to do things that were different from the rest of my family members. Whether it be joining the army, whether it be going to medical school in the United States later on, coauthoring a book warrior woman project that we did miss Judith, you and I, along with the 21 others. So I think that sometimes that was a blessing in disguise is how I would see it, looking back. 

JKO:       Wow. But never feeling like you belong, even from family, it's something that I have experienced. And many people, when they tell their stories, they take it back to their childhood. And for you, your childhood would have limited you, but your childhood challenged you to do different to do the different. Many times we talk about the mental health implications of such situations, could you speak a little bit about how that impacted you in terms of decision making, in terms of relating with others outside the family or in the family? How is that being used to discomfort? 

Pallu:     So I faced my own struggles. Along with all the achievements came the struggles that not only propelled me to achieve those, but also, at times, created barriers. Right? So second guessing yourself, question of confidence, the question of being comfortable in your own skin. Right? So, because colorism is so real in any community of color, that was something that would heavily impact how I viewed myself as well, because I'm of a darker skin tone than even my two sisters. And so therefore, that was constantly pointed out. So, in other words, what I meant to say is that all of it was a journey. Becoming comfortable in my own skin, having confidence to speak out and those kind of things. And I always constantly encourage youth or anyone who needed to seek mental health professionals because there was a stigma in my own family, and I didn't as a child because it was never encouraged upon me. But I saw a psychiatrist when I was at Walter Reid, which is where I did my residency training. And that was very beneficial to understand where some of the barriers to success are and moving past those in order to succeed. So I'm a strong proponent of mental health advocacy and getting the help that's needed. There are situations where medications are needed, and that's okay too. I think the end goal of a sound mental health is really the priority, especially in our youth as well. Women, youth, elderly, all the vulnerable populations. 

JKO:       When you saw the psychiatrist, was this something that was part of the residency program, or it was something that made you do it because you were not raised in a culture? It was stigmatized. It was a stigma to go for mental health support. So how did you come about taking that step at that time? 

Pallu:     I had some life stressors during residency, and so my residency director and so forth, the directors are the ones who suggested it. And honestly, because I myself had that same stigma, in my mind, initially I was resistant, but I think it turned out to be a very good thing in the long run. But initially, it was requested upon me to do that. I'll be honest. Sometimes we need that push from others to do that.

JKO:       Your mentors suggested. And because of who they were, you respected them despite the background of stigma around. That how powerful it is to have mentors that care about our wellbeing, not just what we bring to the table in terms of work or career or labor. So it's so wonderful and commendable. And that's one of the things about these spaces. Even as we're women who might be going through stuff. We are also mentors to one or two. So what we do in terms of how we help their wellness, we can help other people's wellness and that was what that mentor did for you. I know that you're a single mom and that being a single mom is a stressor that I see, not because we are not happy parenting our children, but because something led us to we didn't start the journey wanting to be single. Something took us there and it must have been quite challenging. So could you speak to that? Because I’ve spoken to a couple of women and that's being a single parent, being a single mom, the transition from the love you felt to those love being rejected or whatever, I do know that you've spoken sometimes even when you were in the US army. The negative stuff that was said to you, which you shared on social media, could you please take us back to that part of your life so we've gone through when you were born, when you were in school and then you met this person. 

Pallu:     In terms of the US army I was one of few women of color and I would say more so of South Asian descent in the US army. Again, it's not something that's usually encouraged in families because of the fear of what could happen and just random deployments and so forth. I think families tend to be conservative in that route. There weren't very many people who looked like me. That's why I spoke earlier about being comfortable with being uncomfortable because I was able to step out of when you don't have really a lane of comfort then anything is open in terms of opportunities. Yeah, there's a camaraderie in the military world for me, the army where nation first and so when you have that then it no longer becomes based on just individuals and so forth. So we're aligned to put the best foot forward for the nation and do what the nation needs. And I really felt comfortable with that and so when I could translate that later, even when I became a leader in the rotary and so because that's the motto there is service first. Those are things that help me acclimate. When it came to the US army, despite the barriers of initially feeling like I look different then, you know, life stressors later on happened where in 2019 I had three major stressors all happen in a matter of months. I had started my new medical practice and the first few months to years you're technically in debt, right until you recoup some of those costs. So debt is one thing, then divorce in February 2019 and then two months later my father passed away. So death of a loved one death and divorce all happened in a matter of months. That made it very challenging. At times I felt like how can I even continue to live and I called at the rock bottom. So when I hit rock bottom, I had to decide for myself, am I going to just kind of make it through the day and be miserable? Or am I going to enjoy my future days? Whatever I have left, enjoy it with the children, enjoy any life experience that I have. And I made an active decision to be happy. Okay. And no longer was I determining success based on my degrees or accomplishments. I was successful because I'm happy. And so I'm able to enjoy every life experience I have. Now I just see the world so differently since that has happened. But yes, divorce was very difficult. And growing up, I only knew one single mother. So imagine all of our acquaintances were families. And I think that was partially due to the severe stigma of divorce that's there in our communities. But it's also that parents don't want you to think of that as an option. And so when it came knocking on my door where my then spouse wanted it, I was initially reluctant. But at the end of the day, you can't force someone to be with you. You can't force someone to be happy. You have to if it means out of respect that you honor their wishes and part ways, then so be it. If the children feel two happy households, that to me is better than one household where there's negativity and toxicity. So, yes, it was not my initial path of choice, but it's something that I have made peace with and I've healed from, and I consider myself successful in that arena. 

JKO:       That's awesome. So you said the 3Ds came calling in 2019, am I correct? And you determined, should I stay down or do I enjoy the life I have? And you took some steps to get to the place where you made amends with the divorce. You grieved your father's passing, you grieved your marriage passing, and you were able to heal enough to continue to help others and continue doing life while being happy. Can you tell us some of the things you did to help you through those times when you got out of this dark place where you found yourself? 

Pallu:     One of the hardest things about divorce when there's children involved, especially when it's a shared custody, is that the children are not with you all the time. And because for me, I had attributed so much of my existence to being a mom when they were away, it was really quite depressing and added to it. So that's how it was at those times that I decided to get more involved in the community in order to stay distracted and not feel depressed. And so therefore I engaged, especially. And then COVID hit, and so therefore there was a food drive that I participated in weekly. And then for a period of time, I had to take a break from the rotary that I got inducted in November 2017. But with everything going on, I took a break and then now I'm back into Rotary Leadership there. And that's also service minded organization. So I think that when you get involved in community service, it helps ourselves in many ways, and there are biological reasons for why it helps ourselves, and I'd be happy to share those. So we have three hormones in our inner body that are kind of like our happy hormones. And when we are altruistic, when we give to others, those hormones level raise their serotonin, dopamine and oxytocin. And so all of these hormones, because they have other effects of not only making us happy, but helping our health. This is what I mean by giving to others helps ourselves. In Sanskrit and Hinduism, they talk about seva, which is also a similar concept, service to others that helps ourselves. And so these are very ancient principles that for me, I'm very science minded and I like to understand why things happen from biological standpoint. And so that's where that comes from. But it also helps you feel gratitude, because when we are depressed, we tend to think that we're the only ones in such a situation. And we forget that there are others who are going through worse situations, right? So helping those who are vulnerable and don't have even basic food, for example, and giving out food to the poor, it makes you think, once I started earning, I never had to wonder, am I going to be able to have my next meal? Right? But when I was depressed, it was more of, why is this happening to me? And this guy wanted it to be this way, and it's not, and that's disappointing. But the importance of gratitude is really key. And so I've been helping not only in community service, but also, you know, another organization is Domestic Violence Victims. And again, the stigma in South Asian communities is very great. And so therefore, I'm a medical doctor for one of the local organizations. It used to be called Asha for women, it's called Ashiana now. But I'm able to have a medical practice where I can do these other things like community service and see even patients who are domestic violence victims and take care of them. Yes, it is a bit difficult hearing the stories. And I have many friends who are therapists and psychiatrists who I lean to for advice and say, hey, how do you take care of these folks? And not internalize it, not go home and think about their traumas? And so that's something I had to work on myself. But at the end of the day, it's really for the greater good. 

JKO:       So volunteering really played a huge role in your healing journey. Apart from volunteering, when you go volunteer, you go out and you do stuff, and then you come home and be with yourself. What did you do when you came home and you're with yourself? What other things did you do apply to your life to help you? Because especially when the depression is so much, the moment you're out, you kind of forget that when you come back, you see something that triggers a memory and this and that. How did you get through those? Build yourself up in that other area? 

Pallu:     Ted Talks I listened to a lot about going through trauma and how others dealt with it. (JKO: Ted Talks?) Yeah. The Ted Talks. Yeah. I found those motivational series very inspiring. And, yes, I did a lot of reading about self help and selfcare, and that's how I got through those. But I do appreciate those Ted series. 

JKO:       Okay, so is there any one that you remember in terms of a particular set of that was so impactful, or more than one or a book or more? 

Pallu:     There's been quite a few, but I do remember one of a woman who was of Pakistani descent who was in a car accident and was a wheelchair bound afterwards and was previously a very active person. And she spoke about what she's doing with her life, how she went through that phase of depression, not only from the aspect of functional limitations, but also the barriers to succeed associated with all of that. I would self reflect, and I thought, you know, I've never faced it that bad. I always had a roof over my head. I always had food to eat. One thing, I'm very big into fitness. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a runner, and so I've never been wheelchair bound. And so therefore, it makes you appreciate the things that you do have. And hearing how she got over it also helped me in whatever I could attribute to myself. 

JKO:       So I strongly encourage those in addition to volunteering self help, Ted Talk and the book, you've always been a fitness enthusiast, even through all this stuff. 

Pallu:     What's interesting is that, just like anyone else, when you're depressed, you sometimes deny it. And so for me, one of the red flags for knowing I was depressed was that I didn't want to run anymore, if that makes sense. So you choose the activity that you're most passionate about, that you really have always enjoyed, and if one day you say, I don't want to do that anymore, like, that doesn't excite me, that means nothing to me, then it should be a red flag to ourselves to say, hey, there may be more to this. So I did take medication for a while at the time because it dawned on me, okay, maybe I am depressed. Like, I know I've got a lot going on, but I was always thought, I tried to be high functioning. So high functioning folks who are depressed are the most difficult to treat because a lot of the things that we gauge as signals of depression do you sleep a lot? Do you isolate yourself? Do you not do the things you previously enjoyed? Are you having difficulty at work or at school, depending on the age or what stage you're at in life? And people who are high functioning make a way to mask those things so others can't tell. And you don't isolate because you know that others will identify if you do isolate. But for me, running was very yeah, that was a good gauge for me to say, okay, I need help. And so seeing the psychiatrist, starting on an antidepressant, and once I was able to run again, once I started to run again, I was able to get off medicine. I was on it for like four months. But it was an important way for me to gauge my level of depression as well as I was able to get off of it and go back to my healthy lifestyle of eating well and sleeping well and physical activities. 

JKO:       Many people from our cultures, black, South Asian, people of color, this idea of taking medication for depression, is also stigmatized. And it’s stigmatized because of fear that you're going to become addicted and you're going to be taking it for years and years, and it's not stopped. But you just said you took it for only four months. If I'm going through depression, and I'm listening to this episode, and I'm from that background where it's not I'm scared to get into being taking medication. What would you tell me? Because I've been on antidepressants for years, and maybe it's because I'm high functioning. Not high functioning in the fitness part, but high functioning in the volunteering part. I love to help people. I think it's my personality type as well. I just feel the best, the happiest, so everything becomes not so important when I'm able to help people. But I know that I'm always sad. So I've been on antidepressants for a while, and I don't know when the end will come for me with me in my relationship with the antidepressants. Right. And sometimes even the depression is so bad that the doctor thinks the antidepressants aren't really working. But we've come to the conclusion now that we can't change medications, but we're going to change our lifestyle. So what would you say to someone who is scared? So we have you on this side doing it for only four months and me on this side doing it for years. However, you are physically active, much more active than I am, and am not. So could you speak a little bit to that? Because you have a medical background, so you need more about this stuff to the listeners who are scared or who are in my shoes. 

Pallu:     Sure. So when I say the four months that happened to be how long I took it, now, I think that for everyone, you should base it on your own individual needs. And if you need a lifelong, that's perfectly fine because at the end of the day, we want the end result of people having more sound mental health and being out of depression or having more happy days rather than sad. And so I would strongly encourage using the antidepressants, however long is needed. Sometimes you'll need multiple and that's okay as long as you don't create that kind of a self created barrier to taking medications because of the stigma. Taking it for the end goal of feeling better is just as important as managing your diabetes or managing your blood pressure or anything like that. But I would also emphasize a healthy lifestyle because just taking antidepressants and not emphasizing a healthy lifestyle is like decorating the walls of the house when it's not fully built, right? So trying to furnish the house with chairs and this and that, but the walls are not up. So the four pillars I commonly tell others for good health you need physical activity because physical activity is not only good for your heart, but also is good for those hormones that I was mentioning earlier about Altruism that also applies and they get revved up with physical activity and also adequate sleep. It is often the biggest thing in life that I would say is underestimated eight to 10 hours of sleep. And if you don't get that, there are some people who function on four or 5 hours of sleep and do it for years and years and years and think that's okay, but it catches up on you. And so sleep is extremely important. There are certain hormones, again, it all boils down to hormones. There are certain hormones that are revved up, that work against stress management, that work against having normal blood pressure when you don't sleep well. And so these are important things to remember. So adequate sleep, physical activity, proper nutrition, hydrating well, all of that stuff is extremely, extremely important. And then sound mental health. So SELF is kind of the acronym I kind of go by. And so Sleep, Exercise, emotional wellbeing, healthy Lifestyle, L is the lifestyle and Food intake. Those are the things to really emphasize. And the emotional wellbeing, the medications are part of it. So whatever is needed to have a sound mental health, it has to be end goal oriented and not how long it took you to get there or how use perhaps the quote unquote negative experiences in our life to kind of make ourselves stronger and how we perceive things. Positive self talk, that's extremely important. So I would have to say the single most important thing I did for myself after I got separated was change how I talked to myself because I was so used to putting myself down. That was the norm. And so once I rephrased the same things so I often say I'm not that good in finance, but rather I started telling myself that's challenging, I need to learn that more. I need to learn more about finance in order to have a sustainable medical practice or even at this point manage my own finances. Right, so seeing your shortcomings as challenges to overcome is also part of the positive self talk. So those are some really important key points that I like to stress to your listeners. 

JKO:       Well, positive self talk comes up again here how important this is to our lives. And then for some of us we've grown up listening to how well we're not doing and then we ended up marrying someone who told us how well we're not doing. And then we have some parts of society telling us how well we're not doing. So we're buffeted by these things and then we internalize them and then it becomes a real hard climb uphill to come out of the place of negative self talk. So is there anything that you maybe need to assist you? Because telling me to change the words might not always work but there might be some things maybe something I listen to, an app I use something that I could an extra support because I don't know if there are people some people are so down in the dumps that to tell themselves anything around them is saying they are not good. How do they handle that? Maybe talking from personal experience or talking from medical experience which you are an expert in. 

Pallu:     Yeah, I think it's important to realize that we gain nothing by negative self talk. There are some people who are motivated by it, but very few. I think that the person we are with the most is ourselves. So we all have to be kinder to ourselves and it's a matter of self awareness because if you've come from negativity, if you've come from hearing negative talk where that's the norm, then you have to break that cycle and realize that that's wrong. Because not only do we think that way when talking to ourselves, our own inner talk, but sometimes we also do it to our children, the people we love the most or those around us who we care about the most. So if you've ever noticed, we tend to be hardest on those that we love because that's about their well being, right? Versus someone who's crossing the street, who we don't know. We would never think to go and correct them on a matter. But when it comes to our own children, when it comes to those of us who are near and dear to us, if we're in that mindset of negative talk then we may do that to them as well. And so that's something that is another by-product of why positive self talk is so important because it's not only important to how we talk to ourselves, but also our loved ones. And that stuff, if you let it go long enough and don't realize it's a real issue then it will get transferred, it automatically just comes forth. And so you asked a very difficult Question, in terms of someone who's resistant to doing that, how do you get them to do it? It's a matter of realizing that it is harmful to you that the other way didn't work. You have to come up with new ways. And being kinder to yourself, being positive and having positive self talk are just as important as taking blood pressure medicine. Are just as important, if not more than taking diabetes medicine. Those kind of tangible things are important to realize how important they are. But when it's stuff like that are not tangible, like how we talk to ourselves, then sometimes we don't realize how important it is. But how we talk to ourselves frames how we are in our relationships with others and our relationship with ourselves, and how we you can't be confident, you can't go out there and shine if you're constantly battling thoughts of negativity, right? And we all have shortcomings. Every single person, even the smartest person on the planet, has shortcomings. And so therefore but we don't let it bring us down. In fact, it should propel us to learn new things and more of it, see it as an opportunity rather than something to further bring us down. 

JKO:       That's so good. Thank you so much for that. Thank you so much for all that you've said. You've given us so many tips that we can apply to our lives to do better, to come out of situations. And indeed, from different books I've read, from people like Mel Robins, Lisa Nichols, Iyanla Vanzant, so many people that help others come through challenges, we find out the way we talk to ourselves is so important. Even if we are sick, we have a chronic illness, how we talk to ourselves can determine how well we do in the situation we find ourselves. That, for me, is a key learning from today's episode and something that I have actually been working on. There's a word that Pallu used, a phrase self aware. Being self aware is so important because negative self talk has become a default. And until we become intentional about what we dwell on, we want to be conscious that we're thinking that way. Just about eight days ago, I had an incident that came out of my thoughts. So I'm sitting there and I'm thinking these thoughts, and they were not positive. I was working. So when you're working, your mind is busy doing its own thing, but your mind is always doing something. But you can say, my mind, this is what I want you to be doing. This is something I have learned but I was not practicing at the time. At that time, I've been trying to practice it. So practice makes perfect. You keep practicing. And then someone came and I said something to the person. I said, oh, my son. I was in a place and I was saying, my son had a runny nose. And the person just became COVID panicky. I know that runny nose is not a symptom of COVID. So the person got really panicky, said my son had to go and take tests, blah, blah, blah, because I was staying over in this place and I was so sad. I went down and I tried to talk to them and I bust into tears and I thought I did this drama that was quite embarrassing to myself after the fact. And I discovered and that's why being self aware is so important and being reflective of situations that you've encountered. I discovered that the source of that drama was not the person telling me my son needed to do test. It was the thoughts I had been having while I was working and I wasn't really directing my thoughts. So positive self talk includes what we are thinking per time. What are we thinking? Are we thinking people don't like us? Are we thinking about how someone talked to us and reading a different meaning, a negative meaning? Because once it's negative, it will come out in our actions and in our words. So I want to thank you so much, Pallu. You've given us such a wonderful time today. But I know I'm asking for more. I'm Oliver Twist, If you've read the book. I just want to ask you to give us something for the road. I want you to talk to two people. One, a young girl who doesn't feel that she's worth it, who her family has made feel that she's not good enough. So the other person is a woman. But let's hear you talk to the girl. Tell her something about how to be comfortable in discomfort despite all the things they're saying about her or doing to her. How can she hold her own and hold her heart and keep going? 

Pallu:     Sure. So to that little girl, I would say that you are valuable, you're beautiful, and only you know your potential, not anyone else. Your past does not determine who you will become, who you are, and who you will become. And if you don't make yourself a priority, no one else will. So love yourself, reach your potential, keep shining and just exude positive energy and work hard. If you know, if it's a child, then I would say work hard, get an education and be in leadership because we need strong women in leadership. 

JKO:       That woman who's listening to this podcast and who is in the messy, who is going through the negative self talk, negative situation you went through the three Ds, divorce, death and debt, what would you say to her? 

Pallu:     I would say tomorrow is a new day. Keep shining. And your past has made you a stronger person. And realize that again, your past doesn't determine your future. You determine your own future and who you are. And realize the beauty within and the strength you've gained from all the experiences in your life. All of the think of the scars as battle wounds and move forward in life.

JKO:       This has been another amazing time with a phenomenal woman. A woman who is beauty, brains and she's even brawn. She's been in the army, so she's got to have some. Pallu. Thank you for being such an inspiration, because so many women believe if I'm beautiful, that's all I need. But you are not just beautiful, you're doing good stuff. Sometimes men or people want to put beautiful women on a pedestal and keep them in a glass box and just keep looking at them so they are not able to really live to their full potential. But you are saying to us that you can we can all live to our full potential if we say yes. Thank you for saying yes, Pallu. Thank you so much. 

Pallu:     Sure. I should also mention, the reason why I did those beauty pageants is for myself. I didn't do it for others, I didn't do it even the recognition that's a byproduct. But I grew up feeling that I was one of the ugliest people in the world. So I grew up thinking this. So therefore, doing the beauty pageant, it was kind of a fun thing. But it was really more to feel that within myself, to be comfortable in my own skin. So it was part of my journey for myself rather than anything else. I understand how it may be perceived in society, but this is an important factor. And if someone is struggling to feel comfortable in their own skin, go out and do this kind of stuff, it doesn't matter what society thinks. In fact, I've had so many people tell me, you're a doctor, why did you do that? Because it seems like an oxymoron to do those kinds of things. But I didn't do it for anyone else. It was just for myself. So yeah, I just wanted to point that out there. 

JKO:       Anyway, though, she says this, she's actually very beautiful. She's gorgeous. I can't imagine that she ever felt, well, maybe the ugly duckling became a swan, but this one is a beautiful swan. (Pallu: Thank you.) So you'll get to see more of Pallu. I'll put links to her work. She's doing amazing work in different parts of the world, helping women, helping men, helping children, and she's changing politics. She's helping doctors be their best, do their best and be their best. I want to thank you so much, Pallu, for being here today with us on Messy can Stop Her. You see, messy couldn't stop Pallu. 

Pallu:     Thank you so much. Thank you, Ms. Judith. I appreciate it. Thanks so much. 

JKO:       And that's a wrap. So if you are a woman who has a story to tell, please DM me and let me know. The world needs your story. A woman out there is waiting for your story to take her next step. Please don't hold on to it. And if you're a woman going through the messy, you see, messy can’t stop Pallu messy didn't stop Pallu. So messy won't stop you. Hang in there. Tomorrow is just around the corner. And it's not just that tomorrow. It's a big, bright, beautiful tomorrow just for you. Thank you so much for being on for listening to this episode of Messy Can’t Stop Her. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Messy Can’t Stop Her. See you next time.